Developer Title

Discussion in 'Community Feedback and Suggestions' started by GamemodeSurvival, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. <rant>

    Was more trying to prove a point that such titles are pretty much useless, and that someone's skill, like Mini said, should be checked by the actual quality stuff they deliver and not bind it to titles which are (often) given depending on age. Though be noted that where I work I work with a certain country and their culture (to at least respect that, I'll leave out the name) that's basically the biggest form of "fake it till you make it". I've worked with hundreds of people from that country and culture. They're all senior (seriously, hundreds, hundreds, and I've never seen any that wasn't a senior. It's like they roll out of school being a senior), and all of them have like 20 years of experience in <insert required job position here>. An example, someone specifically stated on his resume that he had years of experience in Springboot, yet he couldn't setup a Spring project by myself. Other people with similar resumes took down firewalls, causing massive (seriously, *massive*) security problems, others seems to like the idea of visualizing and storing passwords in a back office plain text because it's "more user friendly". Meanwhile there's me, the junior developer who has to tell those seniors how to do their job. Would prefer it if everyone (in the same position) just had the "software engineer" title.

    Like Mini said, there are people who just stop caring and don't have any passion anymore. In this certain culture I work with, that is massively the case. You get the job done, it has to work, no matter what and how, and that's a job well done. Nobody cares how it's implemented, how many employees had to fix it, how much of a hassle it is to maintain, how much it costed, etc. All that matters is that it's there and "it works". The customer is king without limitation. You have a company that just hosts some wordpress sites and does a bit of custom development? Yeah if SpaceX came to them asking for a new sub orbital launch calculation system, they'd take the job. It also doesn't help that certain culture's are massively support their anarchy of these ranks. Remember that password thing I mentioned earlier? I had a serious discussion for two whole weeks, almost fights, with this certain colleague on why he has to follow the (internally required!) security standards and just protect the password like a normal person. Problem is he was he was the senior and I was the junior (sane team lead was on vacation), and in a highly anarchial culture, you listen to what the person above you says (in this case I was below, since I'm a junior). Just try to imagine how insanely frustrating it is to work like that.

    That's why I'm not a fan of those titles. Just treat everyone equally. We're all in the same position, doing the same jobs. Why different titles? It has no benefits. Also, they wouldn't give me a medior title last year because I was too young. Yet, I'm praised by the entire company half of the time. It's unfair and it's ridiculous. So, again, I see no benefits to those titles.

    By all means this isn't the case for everyone and every company, just an extreme example of my case where it actually gives the exact opposite effect of what it's intended to do. Considering we have on a platform with plenty of young, starting, inexperienced developers, I fear the same here.


    Quite off topic but the same applies to what OP is suggesting. I see no added value, only lost.
    #21 MrDienns, Oct 8, 2019 at 8:47 PM
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019 at 8:52 PM
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. On a special note, to kinda wrap this up, since its going nowhere ;)

    The tags/titles given to members on this website (the more I think about it) are given to people who have greatly contributed to the community/project.

    Ex: Staff, all staff members contribute a large amount of their time to help keep the community running well.
    Large donators (I believe $100 or higher) contribute a large amount of money to the project.

    A developer who creates a "premium" plugin, contributes no more/less than a dev posting a free plugin. Heck, they really haven't contributed anything at all, other than a product we have to pay for.

    I'll probably make another suggestion about this, but I would rather see a tag/role for members who actively contribute to the Spigot repo (ie: Contributor) over something like a tag for devs who charge for their plugins, since a contributor is actually doing work/creating code that would be used by everyone, since it would be in Bukkit/Craftbukkit/Spigot.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. MiniDigger


    I think we are far to offtopic now so it's fine to give one last response ^^
    No, we don't try to get rid of ppl because of their age, obviously. My company does a very good job at treating ppl by their work and quality of that, not by age, sex, nationality, race or whatever bullshit. I was generalising. But it's a general trend.
    We have an dual study apprenticeship program (basically theoretical education with a bachelor and practical education in company, switching on a weekly basis). I have gone thru that too. Ever since we got new better management a few years back they raised the slots. In my year we were 4, this year they are 15, last year 12. So in the last few years we poured 50+ young ppl into the mix, revitalizing the company. (Without actually getting more employees netto, since older ppl left)
    that, we also tried to change the mindset. Stuff like "competence decides" is thrown around. And when we say that, we mean that. Situations like Dennis describe don't happen (anymore I guess?). My option is respected, even amongst the most experienced developers here that I look up to. We went from talking to everybody formally and using their last name to speaking informal and calling each other by first name (this is actually a big step, in German the difference between formal and informal is rather big as we have different words for 'you'). We don't give out titles anymore, we just refer to each other by what team they work on and what they actually do.
    For me, as someone on the upper end of the skill tree (I don't say that myself but ppl tell me), this is heaven. I can creatively unfold and pour all the passion I have for my work into it. I can however see how this whole new thing is challenging for older employees. For them it's adapt or leave pretty much. Those who refuse to adapt will be talked into leaving (friendly, not mobbing or such bs, but direct). But that's just how the job market work like nowadays. New frameworks and stuff are invented every day, if you don't have the mindset to adapt and learn new stuff you are not fit for this industry anymore. The times of being able to write and change the same cobol programm for 40 years and then go into pension are over. Even in old and slow moving buisness like insurances and banks
    (fun fact: we are literally the last insurance to get a responsive web in Germany, even tho we have over 50% of users on phones..., Me and a collage proposed to doing that, came up with a concept, talked to clients (our marketing dep), got money, hired a contractor to do design, implemented a new backend, made our CMS headless and implemented the whole new website in half a year. And he's 20 years older than I am, so don't take any of this as hate against older ppl ^^ (even tho he already expressed that it was a challenge to learn vue, even tho he was doing js his whole career while I picked it up, together with the whole toolchains in a week, and he's definitely way smarter than I am))

    Man, I write too much, sorry guys, but I just like sharing insight
  4. You should be happy you're even allowed to post premium resources lol
    • Agree Agree x 5
  5. I like this idea, it makes sense to have.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Is there already a mega thread on spigot about job advice and developer work outside of Spigot and the Minecraft community? I have questions myself and didn't want to open a new thread if there is a pre-existing one people use regularly
  7. MiniDigger


    Not that I know of. If you start a new one feel free to tag me and/or quote my messages.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  8. Same ^^
    It's an interesting topic I'm surprised isn't discussed more here.
    • Agree Agree x 1