Resource Let's Talk IDEs (PSA)

Discussion in 'Spigot Plugin Development' started by Choco, Aug 17, 2018.

  1. Choco

    Moderator

    Standard Disclaimer:
    This thread is not a place to debate on whether one IDE is better than another or to rag on someone because of their choice of IDE. Refrain from publishing any personal opinions on the thread. I will create another thread in the future regarding IDE-related topics in which you may include your opinion, but they should be omitted from replies here.


    Recently I've seen members of this forum replying to threads in which the OP is seeking aid on the development of their plugin. This is to be expected, it's the Spigot Plugin Development forum. Screenshots of their code snippets, specific problems with their IDE of choice, etc. However, rather than assisting the OP with their issue, developers instead reply with either links to other IDEs, suggesting the use of other IDEs or harassing the OP about why they're using the IDE they are. More often than not, this has to do with Eclipse and people describing instead to use IntelliJ because "it's better", though this applies occasionally also to NetBeans. This is simply unacceptable. In this thread, I want to address these users.

    I want to note a couple things quickly before jumping into my "rant" of sorts:
    1. I am an Eclipse user and have been for 4+ years
    2. Yes, I have tried IntelliJ multiple times in the past and disliked it. That is my personal opinion.
    If any of the above invalidate what I am about to describe to you, you are part of the problem, this thread is for you. Whether you chose to read it or not makes no difference to me whatsoever, just know that you're causing more issues on the forums than you are solving.

    The rest of this post will be from the perspective of an Eclipse user being told to use IntelliJ as this is, more often than not, what I see most on the forums and in the IRC.


    This is a help forum...
    Start acting like it. Despite what you may think, when someone asks a question regarding a programming-related or IDE-related issue, telling someone to use IntelliJ is not a solution. This is ignorance, elitism and downright rude. A solution is a resolution to the problem at hand and again, despite what you may think, more often than not, Eclipse is not the problem at hand.

    If someone asks "Why is Material.CLOCK not showing up in my IDE's auto complete?" with the following screenshot:


    [​IMG]

    I can assure you that someone on this forum will reply to this thread saying "Use IntelliJ. Its autocomplete is much better". In reality, the issue is this:

    [​IMG]

    The user was depending on Spigot 1.12.2 where Material.CLOCK does not exist. It exists instead in Spigot 1.13. While this may seem like a bit of an exaggeration, it's not... This is something that may very well happen in the near future especially with the recent release of the Spigot 1.13 API and new developers (funny enough, this exact scenario happened days after the creation of this thread... I'm a mind reader). Despite there being a proper solution to this issue that was not IDE related but rather the OP missing the proper dependency, someone in that thread will have turned it into an IDE issue and effectively forced the OP to switch to something they may very well not like. Which leads me in to my next point...


    Not everyone likes IntelliJ:
    Yea... you read that right. There are people, including myself, who have already tried IntelliJ, disliked it and returned to Eclipse. That does not mean there is anything wrong with these people nor does is make what they say on the forums any less valuable than that of an IntelliJ user. It means that people have their preferences. I see an idea from the majority of IntelliJ users that it's objectively better than all other IDEs and while that may be true to you, that is not necessarily true for everyone else. IntelliJ is subjectively better in the perspective of the person using it. To me, Eclipse is subjectively better than IntelliJ but you will not EVER see me going to threads posted by IntelliJ users telling them to switch to Eclipse. This is one of my, if not the biggest pet peeves on these forums.


    In conclusion, my suggestion:
    To all those who reply to threads in this forum, be mindful that some may prefer one IDE to another and respect their opinions for doing so. You come off as ignorant and unintelligent when you reply to a thread suggesting another IDE without proposing a proper solution and I'd appreciate if replies such as that were discouraged if not ceased entirely. This is not me saying that you should not suggest the use of your IDE, but if that is all you have to say, don't bother replying to the thread at all. Here is an example of a reply to use with regards to the example provided above:

    "
    The Material#CLOCK constant was added in Spigot 1.13, therefore it will not exist in previous versions such as Spigot 1.12.2, the version on which you are depending. In previous versions, this constant was instead called Material#WATCH.

    Sidenote: It seems as though you're using Eclipse. Might I suggest checking out other IDEs such as IntelliJ? I personally love it and perhaps you might as well. Just a suggestion though. Use whichever you prefer.
    "
    Even in the above situation, because it's not an IDE-related issue, it seems rather scummy to bring it up randomly. If I were an IntelliJ user I would not bring it up in that specific situation, though if someone were complaining about a feature that they dislike in Eclipse, you may politely recommend another IDE. Replies such as the following are straight up unacceptable:

    "
    https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/
    "

    "
    Use IntelliJ instead. It's better than Eclipse
    "
    Yes, I have seen these exact replies in this forum over the past few days alone.

    To those of you that use IntelliJ but do not create replies such as this, thank you. You set an example on these forums and I commend you for doing so.

    TL;DR: Please read the entire thread, but the main takeaway from this thread is "Respect other people's opinions and preferences". Your IDE is not the best IDE, but rather the one that the person to whom you are speaking to prefers and feels most comfortable with.

    Remember that this thread is not meant for replies saying "IDE x is better than IDE y". If I see any of these replies, even if they are satire, I will delete them.
     
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  2. Thought I would post this before my account gets deleted... (i bet choco deletes my posts before looking at them now)

    One shouldnt have to rely on the ide to code for them

    Anyone else aggree that chocos post is too "wordy"

    EDIT:
    TIMESTAMP: 12/22/2018 -
    This thread really should be locked already...
     
    #2 FalconSeeker, Aug 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
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  3. Everyone has preferences and it should be accepted. I personally use JetBrains IDEs, because, from my viewing point, are the best
     
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  4. Agreed. I much prefer Jetbrains' stuff and would recommend it to anyone who's asking, but if someone needs help with something that is not the time to shill out your favorite IDE.
     
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  5. Choco

    Moderator

    It was a general statement that you should really consider reading the thread to get my whole point, but I did include a proper TL;DR afterwards.
     
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  6. Glad to see I am not the only one who thinks like @op.
     
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  7. Your not the only one. I don't care what people code in. They could be using notepad for all I care. It's about helping people
     
  8. We must include that a lot of people have not powerfull pc, that can't run something like intellij
     
  9. ITT: People telling us their favorite IDE.
     
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  10. 10/10 Best IDE
     
  11. I'm personally a fan of the Banner IDE but Paint IDE is alright.
     
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  12. [​IMG]
     
  13. Probably an unpopular opinion here, but in my opinion, it's not offensive to advise to use software that you made good experience with. If you read something "scummy" into a polite suggestion like

    "Sidenote: It seems as though you're using Eclipse. Might I suggest checking out other IDEs such as IntelliJ? I personally love it and perhaps you might as well. Just a suggestion though. Use whichever you prefer."

    then I can't help, but it seems to me that you're just hypersensitized on this topic.

    The people here who are advised to switch their IDE - unfortunately not always as politely as above - are in my experience, if it's not in one of these IDE discussion threads, new developers who try to get started. They don't use what they use by choice, but because that YouTuber whose tutorial video they watched used it.

    If I see people having problems setting up their dependencies, then I won't stop advising them to use a proper build service like Maven or Gradle. And if it comes to that, it's not offensive to note that IDEs that support them reliably and natively do exist. I personally made the experience that it was easier for me to switch and get used to NetBeans than to get Eclipse to work with Maven. What worked for me might work for others as well. I see no need not to share that experience. I am fully unsympathetic to persons reacting with a rage post and lumping polite, well-meaning advice and plain dumb spam linking together, saying people giving advice about alternative software are part of some ominous problem.

    While in reality, what the reply quality of these forums suffers from is neither people advising IDEs nor those who use Eclipse, but both posters and readers who can't differentiate between offense and criticism; opinion and good practice, and prefer to repeat the dogma they read somewhere instead of putting effort into giving advice that is appropriate to the poster, his standards, his situation and his project.
     
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  14. What you're saying makes total sense but if everyone does it it just tends to get annoying.

    If the issue could've been prevented/resolved by using a different IDE then perhaps yes, a reccomendation would be in place, because it's relevant. But sometimes, and by that I mean most often, the topic is not related at all, and yet people still bring up the IDE the OP is using.

    Compare it to Jehova witnesses. They go door by door to try to convince people to turn towards a certain religion. While it is a "peaceful" method, you're still disturbing people in their everyday lives, and it simply gets annoying if it happens multiple times.

    However, if someone would start talking to you about such a topic at some get together about religion, it makes total sense. It is the right context, and the people who got there were actively looking for such conversations and topics.

    It's simply annoying when you ask a question on here and get a reply that's total off-topic. It's not what you asked for. If OP is annoyed by their current IDE, they'll find something new on their own. And if not, they'll ask. If they don't, they're fine with their current IDE, and thus such a comment is not needed.

    I understand the good intention, but really, it won't come off as good.
     
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  15. My main problem with this is that because the majority of us use Intellij (correct me if im wrong???) It can sometimes be hard to find help if you use another IDE. Suggesting users to switch can massively benefit them if they choose they enjoy the software, and the familiarity with the issue becomes a lot more apparent. I can hardly remember how to manage the classpath in eclipse, but I have a very good knowledge of how to do so with IntelliJ. Same goes for Maven, I've always had a super hard time with managing maven in eclipse but IntelliJ made it a lot more easier for me.

    Suggesting users to use a software you find appealing is not a bad thing, and can help in some cases. (After all, this is a HELP forum...) However I don't promote the form of rude promotion by suggesting inferiority or shaming the user for their IDE of choice.
     
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  16. Choco

    Moderator

    The issue is that users get to Eclipse helps threads before anyone else can. There are users more than capable of helping with Eclipse-specific issues, one of those users being me. I'm on the forums far more frequently than most and I know Eclipse like the back of my hand... my issue is that before I can get to those threads, someone's already replied saying "Use IntelliJ" or "IntelliJ is better than Eclipse" which diverges the topic of the OP entirely. The OP then starts asking "What's IntelliJ', so on and so forth and we can't actually help the OP with the issue at hand. That's where it becomes a problem to me.

    md_5 has said this in the past but "IntelliJ is not the solution to everything". That as well as "IntelliJ is not the only way to program Java".
     
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  17. md_5 saying vs you saying it vs me saying it doesn't really altar the meaning. Just pointing that out
     
  18. Choco

    Moderator

    I was quoting another user... It doesn't give it any more significance... It's like taking an image from someone else, posting it somewhere else and claiming it's your own. You don't do that. I attributed the quote to the person who uttered it.

    @ Others, keeps things on topic please. Thread pruned.
     
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