Stop basic java questions

Discussion in 'Community Feedback and Suggestions' started by 1Rogue, May 4, 2015.

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  1. T̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶f̶o̶r̶u̶m̶ ̶"̶S̶p̶i̶g̶o̶t̶ ̶P̶l̶u̶g̶i̶n̶ ̶D̶e̶v̶e̶l̶o̶p̶m̶e̶n̶t̶"̶,̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶e̶x̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶p̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶s̶u̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶p̶l̶u̶g̶i̶n̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶g̶o̶t̶/̶B̶u̶k̶k̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶A̶P̶I̶,̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶m̶u̶n̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶l̶e̶d̶g̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶P̶I̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶p̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶.̶ ̶I̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶y̶s̶t̶e̶m̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶r̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶a̶i̶g̶h̶t̶f̶o̶r̶w̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶i̶m̶p̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶r̶m̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶s̶w̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶.̶

    You know, I could write a big topic, with lots of reasons, but it's just painfully obvious.

    "Spigot Plugin Development", as far as I'm concerned, should be for questions pertaining to spigot or anything relevant to it. Just because someone callously decided that they would rather have everyone else hold their hand to write plugins instead of learning the language, doesn't mean that it should be the responsibility (using that term lightly) of the people who try to help in those subforums. It makes the forums a joke, one of which ends with people shitposting the same responses or copy/pasting things they have no understanding of, or worse yet offering tutorials that are absolutely terrible to use in any sort of production environment.

    Here's an example of a thread which has finally brought me to the point of having to actually make this thread:
    [​IMG]

    The "spigot plugin development" section is becoming a joke, just as the old "Plugin Development" section on the bukkit forums did. It's at a point where I am no longer wanting to help in any form if it doesn't change. People can easily learn the basics of java if they sat down for a couple of weeks and actually learned something, rather than half-ass it and assume they could learn it along the way. If the point of spigot is improving upon bukkit, then this subforum isn't meeting that criteria by a long shot.
     
    • Agree Agree x 25
    • Winner Winner x 3
  2. [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
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  3. Introduce new rules / requirements before submitting a thread for help in relation to plugin development and "tutorials" imo.
     
  4. That will be one of the most overlooked rules on here. It's because these questions were asked on Bukkit, and now everyone has moved here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. If you want an opinion for action, I would personally say leave a sticky that directs to (well-documented and reputatable) sources for learning java, and lock threads that are specifically non-spigot and guide them to the sticky if appropriate.

    However I'm not administration/moderation here, that's not my decision to make. I just want something to be done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. People are always gonna leach and want code spoon fed to them. Thinking about it, is there anything the spigot team can even do about this?
    Edit: I hate to say this, but now the bukkit site is almost a ghost site, people(including the leaching noobs) will be migrating here. Deleting threads isn't gonna help and is kinda rude, anyway.
     
    #6 GGhost, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  7. JamesJ

    Supporter

    I actually beg for this; the new threads asking to be spoon fed disgust me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. They can impose stricter rules, that would prevent individuals with that intent from posting.
     
  9. Honestly, the people that are creating the threads in question don't usually read the rules. By the time a moderator sees, they might have already got an answer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Maybe this would be a good opportunity for spigot team to create "beginner's room" somewhere...While I understand that people should go through the basic Java material elsewhere, the Minecraft/Spigot dev community should also have some little place for beginner plugin developers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  11. That maybe true, however that doesn't dismiss the need for a "reworking" of the "Spigot Plugin Development" subforum.
     
  12. To add onto this, someone who has just started Java should only have access to the beginner's room for posting, and they can't post in an "experienced" section for programming however they can view threads there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. well, it would be very difficult draw such a line? who's going to do any quality control? I think the practical way would be the usual "moderator relocate misplaced post to the appropriate forum".

    but again, one might say .. can a mod really tell who's beginner and who's not?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Perhaps someone would have to have a good portfolio on the Spigot recruitment section, or have a well-developed resource?
     
  15. Well I believe sometimes spoon feeding code is a good thing, however, after a while if the person still isn't understanding what the underlying code is doing, then it may be time to stop. But, people who are wanting people to spoon feed them an entire plugin are more of the issue here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. I never said to delete threads. Lock and redirect is usually enough to set people in the correct direction.

    The problem with that is that it becomes a matter of judgement to the poster. One person's expert is another person's "hello world".

    This is why I never mentioned "beginners" in the first place, it's not about stopping beginners from getting help. It's about making the forums for "Spigot Plugin Development" about just that: Spigot. Java questions aren't relevant to the section and would do better on sites such as http://stackoverflow.com/
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. jflory7

    jflory7 Retired Moderator
    Retired Benefactor

    This is an interesting discussion, but I'm just going to post an abridged version of my thoughts and opinions as I'm about be changing classes.
    I actually think is an interesting suggestion. A user PM'd me earlier about writing a guide for something that multiple threads might ask about, and whether or not if he wrote it, if it could be stickied. I think this is an interesting idea, and might have more merit as its own section, e.g. "User-Contributed Tutorials". In the event that a thread is posted in the main section pertaining to a topic in the tutorials section, the thread could be locked and the user redirected to the tutorial thread.

    It's also a chance for community members to establish themselves as intelligent and helpful developers (possibly a reputation helper in S&R).

    All of these above-quoted posts sum up my general disposition towards this. Leaving it up to the moderation team, while good in theory, likely won't take much effect. Even if we write up new section rules, that's going to be more time off of our hands to handle other areas that need attention, and I feel like it would be an endless cycle of moderation, where we would be locking and/or deleting dozens of these sorts of threads a day. I don't see the point in trying to avoid it, because either way you look at it, it's coming. There's no avoiding or denying it.

    However… just because that's what Bukkit did, doesn't mean we have to do the same thing. I really like the idea about a "Beginner's Forum". I think an interesting discussion could be had about that if someone wanted to post a well-thought-out idea in "Community Suggestions & Feedback". Have to change classes now, otherwise I'd write it myself.
     
  18. I was talking about punishments/things they could do to enforce the rules. No matter what you do, lock or delete, the thread is gonna be "against the rules" and won't allow replies. As for locking, sometimes people will make another duplicate thread or make another thread asking "WHY??!?!?!?". My personal opinion is that nothing can be done about this, and doing anything to these people would be kinda rude and a waste of time, even though they want to be spoonfed.
     
  19. First off, question should always be welcomed. They should at least:
    1. In the correct section.
    2. Asking in a acceptable manner
    3. Answers could not be found on Google easily

    I think we may raise another question:
    In the "Performance Tweak" section, should we discourage people to post their crash/lag/error reports, or make another section called "Performance Help" instead? "Performance Tweak" section should be somewhere we discuss how can we achieve better performance.
     
    #19 connection_lost, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Yes, but that's a moderation issue. That's more or less the responsibility on the moderation team to handle, it's not something that you can simply prevent through adding a few magic rules. Rule breaking always happens, that's outside the scope of this problem really.

    It's a bit of a red herring but the main difference there is that there already exists excellent resources for learning and getting help with Java, we don't need to also do it on the spigot development subforum. Tweaking is a bit different in regards to the fact that there aren't other online resources where you can get community help on tweaking spigot.
     
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