To all Developers who dropped 1.8 support (or plan to), Here is a message for you.

Discussion in 'Spigot Discussion' started by Nubba, Feb 13, 2020.

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  1. Hello There Spigot Developers, Hope you are having a good day. Here is what i have to say

    1.8 is 5 years old by now. Yes, Most server owners are aware of that.
    1.8 is more limiting than the newer game versions, We are also aware of that
    There are big differences between 1.8 and 1.9+ versions (ID changes, And alot of things too). Also yes, I am fully aware of that.

    My experience as a Server owner since 2012 has been full of ups and downs, But it's been getting harder and harder slowly. At this point, I barely play the game itself. Most of my time i spend creating. And it's how i still enjoy the game to this day
    Being a server owner, You always Hear Developers or sometimes players saying "Just update already" or "It's your fault for using an outdated version" Or straight up some developers blocking me or yelling at me when i mention that i use 1.8 for my servers.

    But the reality is, It's not something i control. I have tried multiple times to update, At the early stages, No PvP reverting plugins were made that were good, So We instantly went back to 1.8, Because PvP was the main aspect of alot of gamemodes.
    Some time after, Being able to use plugins to revert to somewhat similar PvP experience, I gave it another try. Guess what? Most of our playerbase stopped playing after a while, Even though the only change was the game version.
    We reverted back to 1.8, And playerbase started growing back again
    3rd and final try, Using more updated versions while keeping 1.8+ versions supported, AND using plugins to revert to a similar PvP mechanics (Key word here is similar) Gave it some time for players to adapt, And noticed how our playerbase is dropping again.
    I personally preferred the latest version with lower versions support, But people just didn't like it, Having a Factions server and a KitPvP server not on 1.8 slowly made people hate me for taking that decision. So again, We reverted back to
    1.8

    Another important thing. Hypixel, The biggest Minecraft server is still on 1.8. Yes, Hypixel isn't the only server i know, But we can't ignore the fact that the biggest server on Minecraft somewhat controls the opinions of players.


    I just want to kindly say, Please, If you can keep 1.8 support to your plugins, Keep it. Don't be one of those people that try to blame server owners, It's not us, We like to create cool things, But we always look for our players acceptance and opinions.


    I didn't mention alot of details, If you have a suggestion to keep the playerbase up while using more up-to-date versions, Chance are, I already tried them
     
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  2. Note: Hypixel is also running on presumably all in house software, everything is custom coded to their standards which is something us as Spigot developers can not do. Not only are we usually doing this as a hobby, but we have to appeal to a wide variety of players and so somethings just can't fit every server. For many, the differences are too much of a hassle to deal with, from different materials in versions (clay/terracotta, rose red/red dye, every single material id being changed in 1.13 etc) to sometimes a lacking API. If there is an event my plugin requires (which McRPG requires an event from 1.13.2), I can not have that feature in any version below the 1.13.2 jar released January 2019. The biggest issue is people wanting the newest features for a lot of modernized plugins on old software which just can't support us. The main issue I feel is the player base mentality because no one is really willing to adapt to new pvp styles and even when the pvp snapshots are brought up, most 1.8 players refuse to compromise and create a middle ground for everyone. It's a bad place to put a server owner since there really isn't much you can do about it but it's the current reality.
     
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  3. I just want to drop in here, as I had a situation quite similar to yours.
    We have since updated and I deeply regret the decision, since 1.13+ is laggy as hell and you can't downgrade.
    I just want to say that everything I have coded and continue to code is 1.8 compatible and in some cases native to 1.8.
    As for people saying the newer versions have more modernized features.. the only huge benefit I have noticed is the scoreboard rewrite.
    There have been many other drastic changes but none that has benefited me as much as the scoreboard changes since 1.8.
    I personally liked 1.9 pvp when it came out, but then 1.10 pvp where they nerfed bows and killed regen, just completely ruined pvp for me.
    I should also mention that while paper has dropped 1.12 support and continues to move people from 1.13 to newer versions, 1.8 is still going strong.
    There is a active 1.8 community still updating spigot and paper to this day, and that is something that cannot be said for newer versions that were discontinued.
    There is no middle ground for 1.8 players, and I can speak to that myself, because 1.8 is an entirely different experience of playing Minecraft.
    It is not just pvp that makes people like 1.8, it's the nostalgic bugs, the bobbing, the very fast UI that is slow af on new versions, the huge modding community, and more.
    I personally would not go back to 1.8 if I had the chance, I would go back to 1.7 and leave 1.8 in the dust because I hated 1.8 pvp with a passion.
    However, I love what the spigot and paper developers have done with the new versions, much refactoring and simplification of the API made it so much easier to develop for.
    I also love that paper developers are taking steps to keep the old experience alive, even if they do not have much control over where it goes.
    If your plugin requires an event like that, often times you can modify the spigot source code and add it in a jiffy, as long as it is not purely client side.
    However, I see your point, especially as most developers would not be experienced enough or willing to go out of their way to do that.
    For your plugin specifically, that would not be a viable option because that is a public plugin not limited to just your server either.
    There are many points that can go on and on of reasons to use newer versions, and I get that.
    As a developer versed in 1.15 as well with 0 deprecation, I can fully understand and appreciate the work that has gone into new versions.
    As for everyone keeping their plugins 1.8 compatible, it is not going to happen, you will have to be like me and have essentially your entire server custom.
     
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  4. If you want newer features, you need to update to a newer version of a game.

    Plugin developers may drop support for 1.8 but that doesn't mean they remove the download links for 1.8 jars, you can still very well use the plugins. If you want newer features or bug fixes though, you're either going to have to update or hire a private developer to do it for you. Of course you're going to notice a drop in players initially as all the hard 1.8 players leave but if you stick to it you can grow and get new players in that are ok with the combat changes or will be ok with the new changes currently in the works.

    I understand the struggle with it but updating is not a death sentence if your server is good enough.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  5. Strahan

    Benefactor

    And OP, just in case you missed the significance of that, he doesn't just mean custom plugins by "all in house software". The server software itself is custom tweaked as well so they can keep their system solid by patching all the problems that have been fixed since 1.8. That's something you can do when you have a whole team of software engineers supporting your server.

    John Q. Public server owner won't have that, and that's a glaring difference so holding up Hypixel as an example of why it's OK to run seriously outdated and vulnerable software is very flawed.
     
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  6. I intend on making my resources compatible with 1.7 - 1.12
    Don't really see a reason not to
     
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  7. Missing API features....




    Why not creating a premium resource for outdated version. If someone wants a bug fixed version of a non-free-unsupported plugin version.
    Then he just needs to pay to get bugfixes for an old version. It is not our duty to support/provide new features for old versions.
     
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  8. No one is forcing you to update the server version, you can stay at old version for as long as you want, but stop requiring devs to support it only because YOUR server needs it.
     
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  9. I wish it was just my server. It's the majority of servers with a decent amount of players.
    I can't name any server that has fun PvP based games that isn't on 1.8, If the majority wasn't using 1.8, I would assume it's something i selfishly want. But it isn't just me
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 6
  10. SteelPhoenix

    Moderator

    Yea so only like 15% of all servers use 1.8 (source: bstats) Wouldn't call that a majority.
     
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  11. I totally understand where you're coming from. Sometimes it's not an option for you either, But i've seen developers drop 1.8 support just because they think it's too outdated to support, With no actual hard limit that they reached or something like that. I can give examples, But there is no point in that, It's their decisions, I just want to make sure people know what owners with small budgets have to deal with
     
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  12. You do not understand. You can use Windows 7 for the next century. You do not need to update to Windows 10. It is your decision to keep running Windows 7. It won't get updates but runs just how you want it to run. Please do not force Microsoft to support a version that they abandoned.


    They force themselves into this state. Just throw enough money at the developers so that they think it is worth the time.
     
  13. It's not my decision when i see a CLEAR player numbers drop once we update to newer versions. We are an old network, Players got used to something and they refuse to let it go.
     
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  14. That is true, But does bstats include which server version is the most played? I'd assume 1.8 servers are the most or 2nd most played version still
     
  15. Seems that you do not understand. You can stay on 1.8.x as long as you want. It should run fine. You do not need to update your plugins if they run fine on 1.8.x. But do not expect to get plugin updates for this version.
     
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  16. SteelPhoenix

    Moderator

    upload_2020-2-13_20-55-37.png
     
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  17. I know that only 15% of the servers are on 1.8
    My question was, What are the most played servers' version? I'd like to assume it's either 1.8 at 1st or 2nd
     
  18. I just wanna that if you update, and so does every other 1.8 servers, players won't have much of a choice to update to a newer version. I mean, do you plan on keeping 1.8 forever? 1.52.1 is gonna be out and you're gonna be out there with your 1.8 community. Just so you know, there's so much more convenience in the api for devs in newer version (dragon bar, scoreboard, teams, packets, etc.)
     
  19. I think the biggest issue for these server owners is that they either have to give and take between updating and loosing players or staying behind and not updating plugins which comes with its own bundle of issues. OP seems to understand devs have reasons to no longer support 1.8 and would update if they could but the player base won't like it. I think the general mindset of the 1.8 player base is the a large factor of the problem, and that puts the server owners in a tough spot which then results in us devs getting screwed over because sometimes we just don't have the resources to support 1.8. Smaller servers who can't afford in-house versions of plugins or fixes are somewhat just screwed in the long run if they want to be a pvp oriented server but that's just the point in time we are at and there is no valid solution that will not require some sort of sacrifice from devs, players, and/or server owners
     
  20. SteelPhoenix

    Moderator

    Why do you think I showed the graph?

    Anyways, it shows that 64% of all servers use a non-legacy minecraft version so you don't need to put in extra effort for compatibility because the API got some major changes between 1.12->1.13
     
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