Treating Developers Fairly - A Discussion

Discussion in 'Spigot Discussion' started by Ewans_XD, Dec 15, 2020.

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  1. Hello all, welcome to my ted talk, I have created this thread to discuss the ongoing situation regarding developers, PayPal and spigots "rules". This is my first time creating a post on the forums and may aswell be my last but I feel as if this is a good time to create a post.

    I would, first of all, like to mention I'm not a developer and these changes do not affect me directly, I am making this post because I see developers such as GC and Ome_r being dismissed and mistreated by the staff on spigot despite the traffic these developers bring to this site, here are some stats:

    - @GC (Known for AdvancedEnchantments), Has had over 3,800 downloads on his premium plugins
    - @Ome_R (Known for SuperiorSkyblock2 & WildStacker), Has had over 5,100 downloads on his premium plugins
    - @vk2gpz (Known for TokenEnchant), Has had over 10,000+ downloads on his premium plugins/addons

    I would also like to include a list of some developers that have had their PayPal banned: (ill get into this)

    - A developer from Songoda (Has made a very large repository of plugins including EpicBosses, EpicSpawners + more)
    - @deret123 (Stratos World Generator developer)
    - @PM2. (AdvancedMonthlyCrates developer)
    - @OpenSource (PlayerServers developer)
    - @Maxlego08 (xKoth, zShop & more developer)
    - Please let me know any others!

    Regarding the PayPal bans, I have had 2 sources tell me the same story about @md_5 saying the PayPal bans were a "hoax" which is a complete lie. Paypal has stated over the phone they no longer allow selling of game modifications and Minecraft plugins fall directly into this category. I would also like to mention the fact that md_5 has said they will not be adding another payment method to the site disregarding the fact that it would solve all of these issues.

    These lists include some of the largest developers on the platform, some of who have already decided to leave as they were being pushed away and it's about time something is done about this. At the end of the day, the developers are what make spigotmc popular and they should be treated with some sort of respect.

    3 major plugins on the site in the last 2 days have been moved to the InactiveResourcee section because the users were forced to
    spend their time and resources making websites that link directly to spigotmc to give users access after their PayPal were banned. After
    speaking to both developers directly, there is a total of 0 rules that specifically state that these developers are not allowed to
    do this. After all, the spigot administration team is reluctant to give them an alternative so there's not much else they could have done.

    In conclusion, I feel as if any developers that have had their resources removed should have them returned and another payment method (could be stripe, molly, Xsolla or any others) should be added as an option due to the PayPal updates.

    I know its cringe but here's a change.org and their discord links to show some support for the developers:
    https://www.change.org/SpigotMCDevs
    http://bg-software.com/discord - SuperiorPlugins
    https://discord.gg/GzdQdMw - AdvancedPlugins
    https://discord.com/invite/js6fTCt - Stratos
    https://discord.gg/eQPZpuC - xSeries
    https://invite.gg/arcadiaxyz - PlayerServers

    Another thread from around 2 years ago by @BrettPlayMC where more payment methods were suggested: https://www.spigotmc.org/threads/its-time-to-add-more-payment-options.361908/

    **SIDENOTE**
    This thread includes information related to the paypal bans but the goal is to resolve the issue with developers plugins being moved to inactive resource and hopefully getting a new payment method implemented so we can avoid issues like this in the future.

    My discord is Ewan#9655 because like 2 of you asked for it.
     
    #1 Ewans_XD, Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  2. Up, spigot needs a change and we cannot lose more developers.
     
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  3. I have recently started developing plugins and I have no intentions posting them on Spigot after seeing what happened to Brian/Ome_R.

    Spigot needs to either:
    1. Acknowledge that they are a plugin marketplace and support plugin developers and costumers like a marketplace
    2. Acknowledge that they are not a plugin marketplace and stop behaving like one

    Instead they stated they are not a marketplace, yet act like one and then make up rules.
     
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  4. VQ9

    VQ9

    agreed, I completely agree with this and I also think its rediculous because its obvious that due to their huge market share that spigot is becoming something it was never intending to be. If worse comes to worse I will probably screenshot my paid plugins list haha
     
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  5. I am convinced.
    I'm confused. What do PayPal bans have to do with the developers' sites and plugin access? Why would it require changes on these developers' sites?
     
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  6. GC.

    GC.

    Because SpigotMC does not have any solutions for our issues. We're affected, and so are a few other developers. Therefore, we've had to make personal websites where users from this platform could purchase our plugins. In my case, all purchases after were transferred onto this platform back right away, no access given off the site / no competing platforms. We have full responsibility and fully manage our resources, so we're supposed to be allowed to do this ( https://prnt.sc/w3hdc1 )
     
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  7. It's both. Spigot is not treating developers who is the heart of this community how they should. What's the point of allowing premium resources if it's against payment source they provide?
     
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  8. I'd like to see some proof on this statement, before we start calling anyone a liar.
     
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  9. GC.

    GC.

    I was informed by PayPal about this internal ban of plugin sales. Songoda had her own announcement about it in the summer, I alongside other developers were banned on the same day, on November 4th I believe. Upon contacting Paypal, I was told the same information about plugin sales being banned. Any further attempts made by me to contact them yielded nothing as they just read some basic lines (that's why I do not have a recorded call).
     
    #9 GC., Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  10. lol
     
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  11. md_5

    Administrator Developer

    I don't think I've ever used the word hoax, but I've repeatedly stated there is only circumstantial evidence that users have been banned from PayPal for selling Spigot plugins.

    For example, I know for a fact that all of those users who initially complained of being banned also issued $0.01 refunds to their plugins. How are you so sure they were not banned from PayPal for abusing the refund system?

    I also know that most, if not all, of those users did not exclusively use their PayPal account for SpigotMC.org. How are you so sure they were not banned from PayPal for doing things unrelated to SpigotMC?
     
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  12. Only people associated with S*ng*da are being banned. Nothing to be concerned about.
     
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  13. I have yet to see a single case of a banned PayPal account from a reputable developer like Maximvdw, extendedclip, glare etc. (anyone on the first page of Premium resources when you sort on Downloads) which have been selling resources for years without issues now. All of these cases so far have been most certainly incorrect usage of PayPal triggering some anti-fraud detection system.

    Nor would I trust that phone call or anyone who has used the Songoda marketplace.

    To create a petition about "treating developers right" because your favourite developers get banned is a joke since this is a complex issue.

    Besides, this wouldn't be an issue if you just followed GPL licensing properly and opensourced your plugins & charged for support through other platforms. Spigot isn't a marketplace, Minecraft shouldn't be commercialized.
     
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  14. Also moving our resources to the Inactive Resources for no real reason is also not related to SpigotMC?
     
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  15. Take your drama elsewhere. Handle it with the appropriate moderator.
     
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  16. Not again... I, and several others, have had numerous talks with Microsoft / Mojang employees directly surrounding this topic; they say loud and clear they have absolutely no involvement in this. Furthermore, the EULA commercial guidelines explicitly state this [Spigot plugins] is even allowed to be sold.

    It is extremely likely as @md_5 describes; there's no proof that none of these people didn't do shady stuff. There is, with some of these users, even some proof they did do shady stuff or abuse mechanisms (such as abusing refunds).
     
    #16 MrDienns, Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  17. GC.

    GC.

    Not correct? Ome_R wasn't.
    If you have trust issues, that's your own fault. I have no reason to lie, I have initially opened a thread about this in Donors forum, showed all proof I have. I was on a call with Paypal's supervisor when he specifically told me that "game modification sales" are "internally banned".
    Sure, abuse. My case wasn't intentional and was resolved as soon as I woke up. Some developers in the paypal ban list weren't "abusing" that.

    Imagine treating your community the way we are treated now - having our own products moved to inactiveresources as a punishment for you not adding additional payment gateways. Claiming that Spigot is not a marketplace is beyond the dumbness of anyone. If you take a second to look at your own Terms of service, you will notice how they are written and it's clear as a day that this is a marketplace. If you don't want it to be one, then removed premium plugins, otherwise treat it as such.

    All I read constantly is how premium plugins are bad, that you and your team are not going to moderate them to an extent which free are, because they are making you no money. Either suck it up and actually help / control the marketplace or remove it - makes no sense to keep it if we're being treated as trash.

    What about vk2gpz? What about Songoda sending you DMCA's for you keeping onto her SEO results on Google? Is everything with it fair as well?

    I had no advertising on my plugin yet it was removed. I'm yet to have a solution for this issue and for me actually keeping your userbase on your platform is an abuse of rules?
     
    #17 GC., Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  18. The abusing you're talking about was a year ago, it's not the reason for the ban, not to mention that it's something Spigot should have taken care of and not Paypal (which they did, I was punished for that)

    I was banned form Paypal probably because of having a new account with many transactions.
    GC was banned probably because he didn't have a business account.

    However that's not the point, they are talking about how the staff of Spigot treat developers on the site
     
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  19. Half of the thread is about banned PayPal accounts. If that wasn't part of the point it wouldn't have been added to thread, no?
     
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  20. This whole discussion is about that lmao
     
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