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Discussion in 'News and Announcements' started by md_5, Sep 15, 2016.
I wish i can go but Work. work work work is all it is were i am ;(
Full MineCon schedule
Some tickets are still on sale here
Stay safe at MineCon!
I wish i could go at MineCon, probably the next year ill be there .
I need one of those.
The traditional methods makes me wanna drink bleach. They make it as boring as possible. That is why i sleep in class and not give a crap. If you want to teach me math. Teach using Java or something.
If the panel is focused on teaching kids how to program, my only concern is introducing Spigot plugins to them. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with Spigot or the APIs used to make plugins. The problem is the mentality of the community here towards brand new learners. I can't tell you how many times people have been discouraged from programming after trying to jump in here at spigot. They are met by a toxic elitist community that loves the "learn Java first" retort. I won't lie, I've said that to some individuals as well, but it was never my initial response to someone trying to learn.
I've got some of my kids and even my wife I to plugin development for a shirt while. They enjoyed it until they met the community and since given up on programming altogether. I know for a fact that's not an isolated case, either. I'm sure it happens daily to dozens of people if not more.
Anyways, just thought I'd throw that out there. I hope to see more youngsters get into programming, but my fear is the toxic elitists will do more harm than any good.
I agree with you, it's pretty discouraging to hear 'learn java' all the time. But a basic understanding of Java is definitely needed in order to make plugins. You can't just read a few things on the wiki and then try to create your own WorldEdit.
Most of the time I use different sites for questions purely about Java, that way I don't have to worry about the entire community screaming 'learn java' when I missed a little thing.
I agree, but no one is expecting beginners to make large plugins. My son, for example, made the Kachigga plugin as his first one. I helped him a little bit, but for the most part he researched his own stuff. Any questions he had I told him to ask me. On his next project he asked the community and was quickly shunned away and lost complete interest.
Thats my point. If the panel is aimed at complete beginners that should be using other sites to learn programming, then why is Spigot there? If the community's mentality towards beginners is to be considered I would never advise anyone to learn how to program by making Spigot plugins. It just ends up with them completely discouraged and highly turned away from programming in general.
No one is expecting beginners to make large projects, but there are quite a few people who want to make plugins that are impossible to achieve with their current knowledge and skill of java and the spigot api (including myself).
Yes, it is really discouraging to hear 'learn java'. The problem is (my own experience) that beginners don't know why they would need Java to make plugins. They want to make plugins, not programs in some weird language called java. People have told beginners many times that you need to learn java, because spigot is an api built with java. But beginners don't know what an API is and don't know how this 'API' requires java knowledge.
I think if we can give beginners a clear explanation (which they can understand) on why they need to know java, we could give beginners much more helpful advises. I find it difficult to explain beginners that bukkit isn't just some sort of language, but actually uses Java, and that's where it goes wrong.
So, I think a 'learn java', may be necessary sometimes, but an explanation on why would help beginners a lot.
@Stef it seems we are saying the same thing here, but in different contexts. You apparently agree with me that learning to program with zero prior knowledge by making Spigot plugins is a bad idea. Unless the community's mentality evolves into helping day one new learners, too, that is. So, this makes Spigot being on any educational panel a bad idea since the individuals being educated will ultimately get turned away by the community instead of welcomed.
I, unlike many people in the community, will go out of my way to help someone learn the basic Java 101 things. But only up to a certain point. If I feel the person is not benefiting or actually learning anything thats when I stop and recommend they put more effort in on their own before I attempt to help further. Most others do not give people that chance and immediately shun them away to go read tutorials/manuals off site at first possible chance. I've even seen intermediate to advanced programmers getting shunned away because of a simple mistake/typo.
If this community was more open and willing to help with day one beginners, then yes I would highly support Spigot being at this educational panel. However, I honestly feel pulling in people from no background at all will just end up pushing them farther away instead of pulling them in. Why would you advertise to an audience thats going to get shunned away as soon as they come in?
That is why one of my resources doesnt get anymore updates. Its discouraged since it doesnt involve java, but makes it a little more easier to use buildtools. And look at how much shit skript plugins have gotten recently. Even some skript plugins work better than some of the non-skript plugins (no offense, but all plugins has its advantages and disadvantages.) and still get shit.
Recently website templates, which contain some php, were banned from here and now it makes it less likely to see more of those as it discourages others to make them.
This is my note. To all who discouraage others that actually try to make a plugin or have a good idea of one and successfully gets them to stop programming all together should be known as a bad and greedy developer. That is why the smartest person in the world knows where to find it and knows how to apply that knowledge, rather it be google, javadocs, or a book.
I used to refer prospective server owners and developers to Spigot and Spigot's IRC. I've even pushed some of the more experienced server owners or programmers here, they all say it's something to the effect of an elitist cesspool. So no, your scenario is not isolated. To Spigot's defense, the Minecraft community as a whole is generally pretty seedy and aggressive.
I still use Spigot's resources despite being greenhorn, but only because I am thick skinned. Inexperienced children and those not jaded to the reality of the online world should stay the hell away from Spigot. If you want to see more children getting involved with programming, I'd suggest a different/new support network with the capacity/capability/consideration to help young minds.
Inexperiend children? That is a sign of discrimination when their minds can still learn something. Once you ruin their childhood dreams, some get depressed over it and wind up being the same asshole as someone else. I am sticking on what @BillyGalbreath said.
Point being the community is not receptive to inexperienced children. They (inexperienced children) are more likely than not discouraged by the community.
I had a staff member who wanted to make a cool simple plugin for my server and asked this community, but got discouraged over it and still doesnt come here till this day and left my server as well and never came back. No communication, nothing. He was only 12 at the time (based on what he told me and have skype chatted him before and sounded interested in making a simple plot rankup before he griefed and left my server back in 2014).
So we agree then
Plus i think newbies are probably going to start simple before they go to the next level.
I think this is worse than people calling me a troll in that drama thread and getting banned after yall were trying to get me to leave spigot at the time. Yeah this community can be an asshole and discourage others for fame, but i dont think md_5 meant for this community to turn into a riot. I dont mind if @BillyGalbreath teaches me simple java 101. Our school doesnt offer those classes anyways.
I might come, but it's onin the UK! Alsoyour signature made me think I had a bug on my screen!
If you have any spare, I would like one, I will (depending on price) pay for shipping, maybe someone can take it from US to Netherlands so shipping is less
Sadly I can not afford to come to California 980 euro only for the airplane tickets.
For anyone going, have fun.